Posted by speakup > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Sometimes I wonder where was everyone when icap was rm2? It was soooo quiet here then. speakup bought rm2

Posted by dumbMoney > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

@speakup COL would have bought up all the shares available at that price then, but was blocked. So the share price could have been much higher then. Lucky for you to be able to buy at that price all because of the injunction.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Unless you have bought up all the shares available at $2, there must be plenty of others doing that too, including TTB.

Posted by speakup > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Yes plenty at rm2 few months ago, but few takers. Now rm2.80 semua rebut

Posted by Patient Investor > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

@zhuge the job of a fund manager is not to manipulate the share price of its own fund through active purchase/selling.

In value investing, the only rational thing to do during price depression in regards to actual value is to keep buying and wait, instead of wishing the gap closes faster.

There are two type of investor here, one might hope to cash out at a fairer level, and another hope the price just keep depress so they can collect along the way.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

If Icap utilized the cash to do a SBB to push price up, and COL start selling, who would be the loser if not the long term shareholder?

Posted by speakup > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Those bought at rm2 are winners

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Another way a value investor expresses their humility is by holding cash - lots of it in fact - when there is nothing attractive to invest in. If there are not enough securities to fill out a portfolio that meet value investing criteria, the answer is simply to hold cash until such securities can be found.

To be sure, holding cash is not the ultimate aim of a value investor; it is a by-product of the value investing process where humility is a huge part of its risk management.

For businesses and firms, cash is a necessity for dealing with the unexpected. Cash is the heart and blood of businesses. Cash and liquidity are much more important to a firm's survival than earnings or profitability.
Cash serves a similar purpose from an investor's or a portfolio manager's standpoint.

Cash is the most vital raw material for an investor. If one can be absolutely sure that all the stocks one has bought are the correct stocks at the correct prices and valuations, or that there will not be any better opportunities coming your way later, then holding cash become superfluous. How can one be so cocky?

As Tan Teng Boo has previously shared, holding cash is like holding a very valuable option, except that it is one with no expiry date. The value of an option depends on its expiry date, amongst other factors.
The longer the expiry date, the more valuable the option becomes. An option has a fixed conversion price. With cash, it is the investor or the fund manager who decides what the conversion price will be.

Since a value investor will buy only at an attractive price, the value of the option or cash goes up. In summary, whether one is managing a business or managing a portfolio, it is a privilege to have a strong balance sheet now, one that is especially filled with cash.


i Capital Newsletter Volume 31 Issue 36 (www.icapital.biz)

Posted by i3lurker > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Today is the Long term Day for Long Term Shareholder.

Your death wish will come true for you.
When you want to sell The Market price will be 50% of Net Asset Value and everyone will laugh at you for being a short term trader.



Patient Investor

If Icap utilized the cash to do a SBB to push price up, and COL start selling, who would be the loser if not the long term shareholder?

2 hours ago

Posted by dumbMoney > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Do you all remember this quote " if the cash portion of the portfolio is taken out, the performance would have been even better".

Posted by ZhugeLiang88 > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

"The job of a fund manager is not to manipulate the share price of its own fund through active purchase/selling."
I Agree. But buying back its stocks when its at a discount, and selling it to the open market when its at premium, is not manipulate. If you can't see the logic, you can imagine icap invest in an undervalued fund when its selling at a discount to its NAV, and when its at a premium to NAV, sells it, just like you would buy it if icap is selling at discount right now.

"If Icap utilized the cash to do a SBB to push price up, and COL start selling, who would be the loser if not the long term shareholder?"
The loser, is obvious. TTB. His fees might be reduced. You can also say investors like you might not get to accumulate more at a huge discount to NAV, but the aim is to benefit from the growth of NAV per share of the fund, and NOT from gaining more than the NAV growth at the expense of another shareholder who earns less returns than the NAV growth.

"In value investing, the only rational thing to do during price depression in regards to actual value is to keep buying and wait, instead of wishing the gap closes faster."
Yes, thus icap should buy that undervalued fund, and hope that the price remains depressed for a long term so that icap can continue to buy more and more.

Posted by stockraider > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

TTB miss opportunity of making a killing for shareholders of Icap & for capital dynamics when this stock is trading at a discount of 40% to 50% to its NAV mah!

Instead of taking advantage of this unique opportunity TTB chose to put its fund to FD & argue with its biggest shareholders city of london mah!

Thus likely Icap will be liquidated going fwd....it will be too late for TTB to salvage bcos his reputation is impaired due to his previous 8 yrs poor performance loh!

Posted by ZhugeLiang88 > 4 days ago | Report Abuse

I find the biggest issue is the lack of alignment of interest between the Fund Manager and the owners of the fund. And due to that, human psychology will kick in to bend the truth to a reality that is acceptable by them. Example, Elizabeth Holmes (former CEO of Theranos) really did believe she was helping the world (Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/22/ex-theranos-ceo-holmes-believed-she-was-helping-the-world-author-says.html). Thus, its no surprise TTB truly believe Share Buyback (SBB), when bought at a discount to NAV, does not help in reducing the discount, because it is against the fund manager's benefits.

The easiest is to have a SBB policy, to buy back from the open market anytime the discount is say 2% or more of the fund's NAV, and to sell shares back to open market when the stock price is 2% or more of the NAV, with unlimited capital, with no expiration date.

Another option (which can also be done together with the above), is to align the fund manager's interest with the shareholders, namely:
1) Modify the fund manager's pay from 1.5% of NAV, to 1.5% of Market Cap.
2) Pay the fund manager in units, instead of cash.
3) Requires the fund manager to own at least 5 years of his/her compensation in the fund (equivalent to 7.5% of the fund's NAV).
4) Pay the fund manager a fixed fee (or better yet, fixed units), and not percentage of the fund size.

The (4) options above isn't as good as SBB when at discount to NAV and selling those shares at premium to NAV, but it is still way, way better than current arrangement

Of course, to do all these, it requires smart shareholders to vote wisely for directors that would effect those changes, Just like the our Malaysia's politics, It requires that the voters be smart to choose the right leader to effect a change towards better Malaysia.

Posted by ZhugeLiang88 > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Icapital does not needs to be liqudated since there are investors who wants TTB to manage their money (thru icapital.biz).

What is needed, is a proper governance and policy in place to ensure that the stock price stays close to its NAV (say, +/- 2%) thru buybacks when discount, and selling/issuing shares when its at premium.

This way, it allows all investors to have their stock performance in price commensurate to the performance of the fund's NAV per share during their holdings.

Buffett says it best in his 1995 letter to Berkshire shareholders, "What we would prefer instead is to have the market price of Berkshire precisely track its intrinsic value. Were the stock to do that, every shareholder would benefit during his period of ownership in exact proportion to the progress Berkshire itself made in the period."

If icap's stock price is trades at a substantial discount to its NAV, its good for the buyer, which comes at the expense of the seller. Likewise, if icap's stock price is at a premium to its NAV, its good for the seller, but it is at the expense of the buyer. Peter is earning a better return at the expense of Paul.

And if icap is trading at a persistent discount while the management is not doing anything about it, perhaps the discount is warranted. That's why you have activist. You don't see any activist in Berkshire, partly due to its size, but mainly because it is consistantly selling close it its intrinsic value at almost all the time.

Posted by i3lurker > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

Some insurance companies can give you 18% return per year and always sell at NAV. Real Gains

looks like iCap is way under performing others. Someone must be making errors.
and also existing iCap shareholders like to curse others to sell at way below NAV, means FAKE gains

Posted by speakup > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

So buy Allianz, Takaful?

Posted by i3lurker > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

not really
you need to buy up those life insurance policies with investment link
and you had no way of knowing until next year when you see your returns in investment units

thats why many buy life insurance minimum allowed by company and whack in big sum for the investment linked units.

Posted by speakup > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

then might as well buy a unit trust 100%

Posted by Patient Investor > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

@zhuge I think berkshire hathaway NAV growth is way higher than icap, hence it make sense for buffet to perform a buy back. A growth fund goal is to invest in growth companies, instead of finding trading below NTA stocks and wish the share price will eventually catch up. And it's worse if the fund is the one buying up the price...

Posted by Patient Investor > 2 weeks ago | Report Abuse

@zhuge if the funds own one share, and the share is trading at a discount to its NTA, which also directly affects the fund NAV, should the fund buy more of the share in order for it to close the gap, and boost own NAV?

Under such practice, the manager is consider active trading on share price movement.

And how investor justify the request for fund manager to close the gap through buy back, why dont investor themselves keep buying to increase own ownership to close the gap?

And once the gap is close, what do investor do? hoping other investors to buy their shares ?

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

https://www.theaic.co.uk/sites/default/files/documents/QC-Investment-Trust-Engagement-Report-Jul23.pdf

Pages 13 and 23 are interesting reading in the context of ICAP.....

Posted by speakup > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

How many % COL own icap?

Posted by dumbMoney > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

Re the 'prescribed limit' on foreign shareholdings. This is what the regulation says : "“prescribed limit” means a quota, restriction or limit on the ownership of shares by a foreigner imposed on the issuer by the
memorandum and articles of association or any other constituent
document of the issuer. Where is such a restriction in the constitution?

Posted by speakup > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

In a Casino Bull market, ppl like damagu come out to advertise their stock selection service

Posted by dumbMoney > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

While the fund manager is busy hammering out his unique and innovative dividend plan, here is an existing one that has been managing the price premium/discount of a CEF within a narrow range with its built-in mechanism. How do I know? I am a shareholder.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qvjjqr9zeo4vtgtaf7lie/Dividend-with-reinvestment-model-post.doc?rlkey=kj5im29kv9n91vk5mg8t9rc1s&dl=0

Posted by speakup > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

https://www.bursamalaysia.com/market_information/announcements/company_announcement/announcement_details?ann_id=3384364
What does this mean?

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

Once again, despite a very tough and rough environment, icapital.biz Berhad has achieved a very strong performance with its NAV appreciating 20.93% and its share price surging 35.66% for the two years ended 25 July 2023.

Both have strongly outperformed the 7.59% plunge in the bellwether MSCI Malaysia index.

Meanwhile, icapital.biz Berhad continues to invest more. Its cash assets have been falling steadily. This implies that its NAV will be appreciating further. With Capital Dynamics’ time-proven value investing philosophy, and icapital.biz Berhad still undervalued, it is actually an excellent time to invest more in this truly low-risk, high-return investment. A profit of 35.66% in a market that fell 7.59% is indeed a rare gem.


icapital.biz Berhad 4Q23 Report

Posted by FastMoney666 > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

Re announcement posted by speakup....
It will just add uncertainty to the stock and widening the discount again....
Let's see how deep are the pockets of small investors to keep buying and try to narrowing the discount......if everyday only a couple of thousand shares changed hand it will take a long long time of moving sideway if we are lucky but if we are unlucky some emo small timers might just take whatever buyers price.....crashing down the stock. Then TTB will start buying again ? He and his fund have accumulated not small amount of shares ... already reaching 2.18% as of 1 Sept 2023....Is TTB actions driving down or COL talked down the share price? ^-^

Posted by dumbMoney > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

Most probably just another excuse to take COL to court again and get an injunction to stop the latter from accumulating more shares.

Posted by Patient Investor > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

If COL is being forced to par down holdings to 20%. and retailer queue at RM1 and below, what would happen?

Posted by dumbMoney > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

How many days of limit down will that be?

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

Net Asset Value per share of icapital.biz Berhad as at 6 September 2023 is 3.56.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

@patient investor - if you have shares now, sell it and wait for RM 1

Posted by FastMoney666 > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney - +/- 3,000,000 shares at 30,000 shares per day - 100 trading days....Enough to shake the small timers
Today already people willing to let go at 2.59

Posted by FastMoney666 > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

If TTB think we can run bad mouth campaign to shake off confidence is akin to the pen is mightier than the sword. thinking..then the richest man on earth should be a writer not an investor or speculator.....if we think we are bigger than the market, we just kidding ourselves. ^---^

Posted by dumbMoney > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

@FastMoney666 The announcement is targeted at COL, but it being also a shareholder, other shareholders become collateral damage from the share price.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney - agreed. I wish TTB to be fairer and not to get personal. It's small guys that keep selling while there are some institutional investors providing liquidity to prevent share price dropped irrationally. TTB argues that it's small holders that will provide stability and narrowing the share price. I don't quite agree to that. There are plenty of studies show that any stock market dominated by retail investors such as early days in the USA or China stock market, the price volatility are way much higher. When it goes up it will go up to euphoria stage and when it goes down, a dollar found on the street is being delusional justified as 0 value. ^--^

Posted by FastMoney666 > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

TTB argued that the period where icap enjoyed a huge premiums in year 2007....at that point of time, all investors sure feel shiok due to bull market....but just like Warren Buffet said bull market was like sex, it feel the best just before it end. ^--^

Posted by FastMoney666 > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

Go....yeah... baby go ..... kimochi

Posted by FastMoney666 > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

For anyone who follow YTL Corp, when the share price crashing down to 50 sen.....it was EPF that continued to sell down during the whole period the Covid 19....the price stopped declining when they stopped selling and of course with the financial turnaround recently, it just rocketed. A sharp eye like TTB surely will have something to learn. If they force COL to pare down stakes to less than 20% from current 23%, just a 3% pare down will be roughly 4,200 million shares....it will drive it down if they are forced to sell in a short time due to injunction or court orders(in case they won la)

Posted by FastMoney666 > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

When COL start selling, other small guys will rush out from the door even faster and will create a death downward spiral.

Hope TTB will not get piss when reading these comments or drag me to court.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

Correction ha...4.2 million shares not 4,200 millions(ooops.....) Sorry

Posted by speakup > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

thanks for pushing up icap today for me to sell. LOL!

Posted by Patient Investor > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

@FastMoney Volatility is a value investor's best friend :)

Posted by speakup > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

Now wait for COL to dump their excess of 20% shares

Posted by FastMoney666 > 1 week ago | Report Abuse

Current rising tide will lift all boats. ICAP got a few big holding such as Padini, Seremban Engineering, CapitalA, Hibiscus, Kelington, Suria Capital are on the rising trend....when these names hit all time high, estimated NAV will be around RM 4.20. At 20% discount will translate into Share price of RM 3.40, So iCapital trading buy of RM 3.50 is not a laughable target. Their second target of RM 5 is a bit far fetch. ^__^

Posted by FastMoney666 > 6 days ago | Report Abuse

14-Sep-2023. COL bought 80,100. Total shares transacted for the day: 87,300. 92% of the transactions. Good signal, they are not afraid of TTB latest action. They think TTB is only barking not biting. ^__^

Posted by FastMoney666 > 6 days ago | Report Abuse

Just to make things clear ya.. I am not related to any of COL or iCapital people but just a normal Ah Fok on the street. Just interpreting the information from public available information. Just take all the comments with a grain of salts.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 6 days ago | Report Abuse

Just do it as a past time activity. Some people do something trying to show their nobleness or kindness to others...I have neither. @^@

Posted by Patient Investor > 6 days ago | Report Abuse

COL must be deeply in love with i-capital. They blast the fund manager, yet keep buying.

Posted by speakup > 6 days ago | Report Abuse

At one point in time I tot no chance sell above 2.70 already, tiba tiba someone push up for me to sell